http://www.pbs.org/now/transcript/transcript314_full.html

Bill Moyers interview with JOHN DEAN/"Worse Than Watergate"

BILL MOYERS: You could barely keep up with the news about the 9/11
Commission this week. So tonight, we're going to talk to someone with a
long
range perspective...remember Watergate?

WATERGATE HEARINGS: "What did the President know and when did he know
it?"

BILL MOYERS: 1973: The Watergate hearings mesmerized the nation and
brought
down a President of the United States, Richard Nixon. The star witness
was a
thirty-three year old John W. Dean.

JOHN DEAN: I began by telling the president there was a cancer growing
on
the presidency, and if the cancer was not removed, the President
himself
would be killed by it.

BILL MOYERS: John Dean came to the White House in 1970 as Counsel to
the
President, joining a team that included the equally young Dick Cheney
and
Donald Rumsfeld.

When burglars hired by the Nixon Campaign for Re-election were caught
breaking into the offices of the Democratic National Committee, Dean's
role
was to see that they got their "hush money" and kept their mouths shut.
When
the conspiracy began to unravel and it appeared he would be made the
fall
guy, Dean agreed to co-operate with the investigation Richard Nixon
fired
him in April 1973. Two months later, he made his dramatic appearance
before
the Senate committee investigating the scandal.

After five days of his testimony and cross-examination, there was no
doubt
that the cover-up started at the top, with the president himself.

To escape impeachment, Nixon resigned on August 9, 1974. John Dean
pleaded
guilty to conspiracy to obstruct justice and served four months in
prison.

Returning to private life, he began a successful career as an
investment
banker, lecturer and author. His books include three on the Nixon
administration - and now, this one, with the title: WORSE THAN
WATERGATE:
THE SECRET PRESIDENCY OF GEORGE W. BUSH.

BILL MOYERS: John Dean joins me now to talk about secrecy in the White
House.

Welcome to NOW.


JOHN DEAN: Thank you, Bill.

BILL MOYERS: Let's start with the news of the day. This morning we
learn
that President Bush has kept thousands of pages of secret documents
from the
Clinton years from being turned over to the commission investigating
the
9/11 attacks. What do you make of that?

JOHN DEAN: Well, I think it's very typical. I think it's very
consistent
with his pattern. It goes all the way back to when Cheney put together
his
Energy Task Force, for example, and put a shroud over that and has
refused,
adamantly, to release any information from that. This is just more of
that
pattern where this White House has decided they're going to take total
control of information.

And, they did it with the Joint Inquiry on Capitol Hill into 9/11. As
John
McCain said they were slow-walked and stonewalled on Capitol Hill by
the
administration. The families of 9/11 then urged that there be a
commission
created which we now have. And they've done the same thing. And brought
it
right into their own campaign.

BILL MOYERS: But these documents deal with al-Qaeda, Osama bin Laden,
the
Clinton team's reaction to the terrorist attack. Why wouldn't they want
the
Congress the investigating commission to have that kind of information
if
they're trying to put the whole story together?

JOHN DEAN: Well, I'm not sure they want the whole story together.
There's
always a situation that when you deal with an investigation you can
either
be aggressive or you can be passive. You can be offensive or defensive.
They've decided to put them self in a defensive posture on this.

And I'm not sure that they haven't been forced to do it because they
have
something that they really don't want out about the way they've handled
it.
Mr. Clarke, his testimony indicates that they might have some things
that
they don't really wanna reveal to the public.

BILL MOYERS: Their efforts to stonewall, as you say, the investigations
have
failed. This is out today about they're holding back the documents from
the
Clinton years to the commission. But political pressure, public opinion
have
forced the testimony next week of Condoleezza Rice.

JOHN DEAN: Yes.

BILL MOYERS: So it's not working, is it?

JOHN DEAN: Well, it doesn't work.

They've obviously made a political decision that they cannot refuse to
let
Miss Rice testify. So he's agreed to let her do so. But there's still
more
information we don't know.

And he's also put, they put tight limits on her testimony. She's gonna
do 2
1/2 hours. That isn't a lot of testimony. That's really not a lot at
all.

BILL MOYERS: If Condoleezza Rice asked you to help her prepare for that
testimony, what advice would you give her?

JOHN DEAN: Well, I'd say give lots of opinions. Because opinions aren't
perjurious.

BILL MOYERS: They're not?

JOHN DEAN: No. They're not.

BILL MOYERS: Perjurious meaning?

JOHN DEAN: You're convicted of perjury for a false statement.

BILL MOYERS: Give me an example.

JOHN DEAN: Well, I'll give you an example with Clarke. Clarke has said
that
he can't believe that Bush is running on his record of terrorism.
That's
pure opinion. You can't be convicted for perjury on offering an opinion
like
that.

BILL MOYERS: You finished this book when? Back in January?

JOHN DEAN: I finished it in late-January.

BILL MOYERS: So, you actually finished the book before the last month
of
intense activities and disclosures, right?

JOHN DEAN: I did. But the pattern has been so consistent. And I wrote
the
book because no one's talking about these things. Now more with this
issue
has come up. But I, at times, felt sort of like a CIA analyst where I
would
take this fact, that fact, taking my inside knowledge as you could do
as a
former insider. And piecing it together and seeing patterns and
understanding what they're really doing. And that's what this book lays
out.

BILL MOYERS: You write that the administration has tried to block,
frustrate
or control any investigation into 9/11 using, quote, "well-proven
tactics
not unlike those used by the Nixon White House during Watergate." What
tactics?

JOHN DEAN: Stall. Stall. Stall.

We knew that at the Nixon White House. Some of these are time-tested
tactics. When the Congress put together its joint inquiry, a joint
inquiry
itself was self-defeating because it's much more difficult for a joint
inquiry with its size, the lack of attention its staff can give to a
group
that large. It gets diffuse.

BILL MOYERS: So when you testified in Congress in the 70's there was a
Senate Investigating Committee and a House Judiciary Committee, right?

JOHN DEAN: Right. Separate committees. Exactly. And they can get much
more
focused. So it was very effective. And Cheney and Bush were very
involved.
They didn't want any of the standing committees to do it. They put them
together. And that was one of the first signs I saw that they're just
playing it by… I think they found an old playbook down in the basement
that
belonged to Richard Nixon. And they said, "Well, this stuff looks like
it
works."

BILL MOYERS: Be specific with me. What is worse than Watergate?

JOHN DEAN: If there's anything that really is the bottom line, it's
taking
the nation to war in a time when they might not have had to go to war
and
people dying. That is worse than Watergate. No one died for Nixon's
so-called Watergate abuses.

BILL MOYERS: Let me go right to page 155 of your book. You write,
quote,
"The evidence is overwhelming that George W. Bush and Richard B. Cheney
have
engaged in deceit and deception over going to war in Iraq. This is an
impeachable offense."

JOHN DEAN: Absolutely is. The founders in the debates in the states. I
cite
one. I cite one that I found, I tracked down after reading the Nixon
impeachment proceedings when Congressman Castenmeyer had gone back to
look
to see what the founders said about misrepresentations and lying to the
the
Congress. Clearly, it is an impeachable offense. And I think the case
is
overwhelming that these people presented false information to the
Congress
and to the American people.

BILL MOYERS: John, I was, as you know, in the Johnson White House at
the
time of the Gulf of Tonkin when LBJ escalated the war in Vietnam on the
basis of misleading information. He said there was an attack in the
Gulf of
Tonkin. It subsequently turns out there wasn't an attack.

Many people said then and have said that LBJ deceived the country and
concealed the escalation of the war. You even say in the book that he
hoodwinked Congress. Are you saying that that was not an impeachable
offense
but what is happening now is?

JOHN DEAN: No. I'm saying that was an impeachable offense. In fact, it
comes
up in the Nixon debates over whether the secret bombing would be an
impeachable offense. That became a non-high crime or offense because
Nixon
had, in fact, told privately some members of the Congress. Johnson
didn't
tell anybody he was - the game he was playing to my knowledge.

And these are probably the most serious offenses that you can make when
you
take a country to war, blood and treasure, no higher decision can a
President of the United States make as the Commander-in-Chief. To do it
on
bogus information, to use this kind of secrecy to do it is intolerable.

BILL MOYERS: After Congress delegated the authority to the President to
go
to war, it said, "Only, however, if you meet these two conditions. As
you
prove to us, you come back to us and determine that Iraq was involved
with
terrorism with al-Qaeda. And that there are weapons of mass
destruction."
And you say that Bush did not satisfy those two requirements?

JOHN DEAN: He did not. He explained. Had he merely sent his very
general
letter saying, "This is what I've determined." Keeping it very broad,
not
how he determined it or why he deterined it, he might have been all
right.
But he accompanied that with an explanation of how he had done so. And
it's
a bogus explanation.

BILL MOYERS: Secrecy always accompanies war. Presidents can't do their
job,
frankly, in war, without secrecy. Citizens come to take their
government's
word that secrecy is essential.

JOHN DEAN: Yes.

BILL MOYERS: Is the war on terrorism going to confirm people in the
tolerance of secrecy?

JOHN DEAN: The Bush-Cheney secrecy started long before 9-11. Started
long
before there was war. There has been only an acceleration and a use,
and to
me, an abuse, of secrecy using 9-11 as an excuse to make things secret
that
have no business being secret. This is what presidents do.

BILL MOYERS: You're especially agitated in here by what you call the
dirtiest of dirty tricks, the role of the government in revealing that
Ambassador Joseph Wilson's wife, Valerie Plane Wilson, was a covert CIA
agent.

JOHN DEAN: As dirty a trick as I've ever seen, bar none.

BILL MOYERS: Dirtier than Nixon's?

JOHN DEAN: Dirtier. Nixon put no hits out on anybody that I nor did he
pick
on his enemies' wives. And this clearly was a dangerous leak. This
woman,
they knew she was at the CIA. They may or may not have known how much,
how
deeply involved she was. But there was always that risk when you reveal
the
identity of a CIA agent, particularly who's an operative.

BILL MOYERS: And you're satisfied this came from within the
administration?

JOHN DEAN: There's no doubt in my mind. Where else could it have come
from?
Who else has privy to that kind of information? Who else tried to fan
the
fires once it got out there? They were after Wilson for telling the
truth
about whether or not Saddam Hussein had uranium from Africa. And it was
not
a true statement that the President was relying on in this effort to go
to
war.

JOHN DEAN: We don't have all the details. There's a grand jury that's
now
investigating that. Which, incidentally, Bill if that grand jury
doesn't go
beyond just the staff, and talk to and somehow get statements from both
the
President and the Vice President as to what they knew and when they
knew it
because this has been kept buried. And it has all the scent, but not
quite
the smell yet, of cover-up going on in there.

BILL MOYERS: In fact, you claim that this potentially involves a
criminal
conspiracy. Help me to understand that.

JOHN DEAN: Well, if it takes very little to create a criminal
conspiracy. If
you and I agree here this morning that we're gonna rob a bank, and you
say,
"Well, that sounds good to me," and I don't really tell you I go out
and do
it, you're just as guilty as I am. And it doesn't-- and oh, you can
join a
conspiracy as it goes along.

Obstruction of justice is probably one of the broadest, most
ill-defined
federal offenses I know of. I learned about it the painful way. I never
had
thought I wasn't trained as a criminal lawyer. I learned my criminal
law the
hard way. In fact, that was my one mistake. You needed, in that
particular
presidency, to be a very good criminal lawyer.

But, the point I'm making is that, you know, they have walked into a
potential situation by not trying to flush it out right away. And Bush,
for
example, saying, "I don't think they'll ever catch the leaker." That's
sending signals. Keep it you know, keep your head down.

BILL MOYERS: It's potentially a criminal conspiracy, isn't it, because
two
or more officials are involved?

JOHN DEAN: That's right.

BILL MOYERS: And the WASHINGTON POST has said, without identifying
anybody,
that there were at least two officials involved in this leak.

JOHN DEAN: That's right.

BILL MOYERS: You and I both worked for Presidents who were obsessed
with
secrecy. I mean, Lyndon Johnson could be paranoid about leaks. And you
write
in your book that of all the Cold War Presidents, none was more
secretive
than Nixon who, himself, admitted he became almost, quote, "a basket
case
with regard to secrecy." But you go on to write that when it comes to
secrecy, quote, "never before have we had a pair of rulers like Bush
and
Cheney." What do you mean by that?

JOHN DEAN: The Nixon approach as opposed to this White House is much
more
open government. Nixon wanted to, he wanted to share. It's really
during
Watergate when he finds himself in very bad straights that he really
becomes
so secretive. But as I say, and I record in this book chapter by
chapter and
fact by fact, we've never seen secrecy like this.

BILL MOYERS: Why do you think the press has not been talking about it?

JOHN DEAN: I don't know. I find as I discuss in the book, that the
media
decided to give the Bush Administration a pass. One of the immediate
after-effects of Watergate and having watched Presidencies before and
after.
After Watergate, a President was presumed to be doing the wrong thing.
Now,
he wasn't given the benefit of the doubt. Before, he was.

BILL MOYERS: Vietnam has to be an event--

JOHN DEAN: Vietnam--

BILL MOYERS: Vietnam and Watergate. Those were the two--

JOHN DEAN: No question that they are Watergate and Vietnam are very
related
in many ways. But so after Watergate, you have this very questioning
media.
You have a lot of investigative journalism. And this really runs right
through the Clinton Years. And somehow, almost like a switch was hit.
When
the Bush Administration came into office somebody hit that switch. And
no
longer is there that doubt. No longer is that questioning.

BILL MOYERS: You say secrecy is out of hand.

JOHN DEAN: No question. It's out of hand because it's never been as
severe.
When these people moved into 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, they closed the
doors, they pulled the shades, and they put, in essence, a gag order
out.

BILL MOYERS: John, what do you think about the fact that the
commission, the
9-11 Commission, has agreed to allow the President and the Vice
President to
appear together before them, with only one staff member present to take
notes? What's behind that?

JOHN DEAN: I just think that is so evident of the lack of George Bush's
knowledge as to what's going on.

BILL MOYERS: How so?

JOHN DEAN: Well, he needs Cheney there to be the man who can get into
depth.
He's as good as his script.

BILL MOYERS: But of course it would also mean that they can keep their
story
straight.

JOHN DEAN: It can do that.

BILL MOYERS: You know, there is no way that we're not gonna be accused
of
Bush-bashing. Part of the temper of the times is that journalistically
it's
inevitable, I think, in this polarized country today. But what's beyond
that? What is at stake here?

JOHN DEAN: Well, I'm not interested in Bush bashing. I'm really only
interested in the truth getting out, people understand a very complex
and
sensitive issue. And that is secrecy.

In fact, I rely, if you notice in the book on every chapter I start
with
somebody who is of Mr. Bush's party, talking and complaining about his
excessive secrecy. This isn't a partisan issue for me.

This isn't an issue of Republicans versus Democrats. This is an issue
of
good government versus bad government. This is an informed electorate
and an
uninformed electorate.

And I don't think there are any options here. And it's not to me, if
the
truth is bashing, I'll take the charge. If when I see people making
wild and
baseless charges, I find that to be bashing.

BILL MOYERS: Are there any sour grapes here? I mean could it be said
that
your White House career ended in disgrace, while the young Cheney and
Rumsfeld went on from one success to another, not only in business, but
in
government? Is there something about-- of an old blood feud here?

JOHN DEAN: Not for me, anyway. Not in the slightest. Bill, this is a
book I
could have never planned on writing. I had written a number of columns.
And
it just kept getting worse and worse and worse.

And I said, "Nobody's speaking to these issues." I have no grudge
against
any of these people at all. I'm just I'm deeply disappointed in them.
Deeply
disappointed. And a bit frightened by them.

BILL MOYERS: You-- how so?

JOHN DEAN: That they absolutely won't, you know, what the world opinion
is,
is irrelevant to them. What the Americans' opinion, other than their
base,
is irrelevant.

They're on their own wavelength, and not listening. And they're men of
zeal,
while I think in their hearts they believe they're doing the right
thing.
This is the most dangerous kinda situation.

When you move in secrecy and you're not taking outside advice, when you
get
that bunker mentality, which I'm sure you saw in the Johnson
administration,
we saw in the Nixon White House. This is when you make bad decisions.

BILL MOYERS: I haven't seen you for many, many years. But I have noted
that
both of us are somewhat zealots ourselves about secrecy. And I know
mine
comes out of realizing too late what the price - that democracy really
does
die behind closed doors.

JOHN DEAN: Absolutely. Well, you know, Bill, I don't come at this as a
partisan. I mean I really left those days long behind me. I'm a
registered
Independent. I vote for both Republicans, I vote for Democrats. I vote
for
the issues.

And you know, I didn't wanna get in the mix of a partisan thing. But I
do
think these are issues that must be on the table.

BILL MOYERS: You say in here that even more so than Nixon, they come
after
their enemies list, the people on their enemies list. I mean we see
what's
happening to Clarke. What's gonna happen to you again?

JOHN DEAN: You know, they can't hurt me at this point. I'm damaged
material
already.

BILL MOYERS: The book is WORSE THAN WATERGATE: THE SECRET PRESIDENCY OF
GEORGE W. BUSH, by John W. Dean. Thank you for joining us on NOW.

JOHN DEAN: Thank you, Bill.




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